OK, So What If . . .

[johnbrickner]

OK, it's a given we all know the value of PMs as insurance, as hard, sound money. So what if a generation or two of western culture human beings are distracted, plugged in, entertained and otherwise kept un-aware of such?

I mean, cash is already being killed. People are digitizing and depositing checks via Smart Phone and my sister swears she'll be able to do digitize and deposit cash with serial numbers as long as she promises to destroy them when she is done. And oh, I owe you $10.45 for lunch and I send it to you by my phone, while you put it on your card. So is it any wonder there are a generation or two who have no idea what a 50 cent piece is?

Soooo . . . what if (however highly unlikely) the western powers leaders are able to keep it together long enough for a generation or two, to not see PM and PM mining stock prices go up as their insurance value increases from events and fiscal misbehavior? Like we have been seeing for several years already!

I think at some point, PMs won't have to be manipulated as there won't be enough demand once we're gone for a generation or two regardless or how long history says otherwise, or how serious the events that are supposed to trigger it as in the past.

Except for those in the East that may keep the collective memory. Or will they? Perhaps it will only take a bit longer.

[beauanderos]

Stacking makes me happy. I may not die rich, but I'll die happy.

[InfleXion]

This is definitely a valid concern for any stacker.

With silver in particular, some wonder about whether so much of it could end up in landfills that there isn't enough for it to be used as money. Although that argument is nullified by divisibility from a monetary sense, it does apply in the practical sense somewhat in that A) the price of silver would have to rise substantially for there to be enough in circulation for every day use by the population, in which case you'd be carrying around very tiny pieces, or else B) if the price did not rise then yes there wouldn't be enough to go around because you'd need a large piece for a small unit of measure.

While "B" defies market equilibrium, we've seen that markets can be controlled for a time, but markets are always seeking equilibrium. It's like gravity, you can stand on one leg for a really long time, with ease at first even, but eventually gravity will beat you. Eventually, market manipulators will be outlasted by free market forces unless there is no market. How's that for reassuring!

Some have speculated it may be the goal of the elite to completely remove silver from existence by crushing the price and dumping it in landfills. Were that to be successful, it makes a good case to have some gold too.

Can it happen? Stranger things have. Will it happen? I doubt it.

The reason metals are money isn't because of decree or widespread support, both of which are helpful if not necessary, but not the cause which is because the intrinsic properties of metals are best suited to perform the function of money out of anything we know in existence. Fungible, divisible, durable, portable, and a store of wealth. Metals have been all of these things 100% of the time ever since the first human set eyes on them, and some attributes of those even transcend the human equation. Value only exists in our minds afterall. That they are elements, created only by supernovas (and probably the big bang) makes them truly unique and truly finite in the world and the universe. The universe is eventually going to run out of hydrogen atoms in the very distant future from all the nuclear fusion of stars living out their lives. That's not to say whether or not there will be a shortage outside our planet, but that's all I'm concerned about for the moment.

My point is that even if silver disappeared from consciousness, eventually, if humans ever go back to a less technological way of life, or alternatively if some choose not to go along with whatever technological advances are around the corner, the metal will fulfill its role as money in the event that people have a surplus of some kind and need a medium of exchange. Whether that will be of use to each individual person will depend on their circumstance.

Gold to me seems such a vital part of the human psyche though, I don't think it could ever be forgotten. It inspires something.

I also have a hard time seeing the current monetary system lasting another 10 years, let alone generations. Exponents move fast at the tail end.

[neilgin1]

OK, it's a given we all know the value of PMs as insurance, as hard, sound money. So what if a generation or two of western culture human beings are distracted, plugged in, entertained and otherwise kept un-aware of such?

I mean, cash is already being killed. People are digitizing and depositing checks via Smart Phone and my sister swears she'll be able to do digitize and deposit cash with serial numbers as long as she promises to destroy them when she is done. And oh, I owe you $10.45 for lunch and I send it to you by my phone, while you put it on your card. So is it any wonder there are a generation or two who have no idea what a 50 cent piece is?

Soooo . . . what if (however highly unlikely) the western powers leaders are able to keep it together long enough for a generation or two, to not see PM and PM mining stock prices go up as their insurance value increases from events and fiscal misbehavior? Like we have been seeing for several years already!

I think at some point, PMs won't have to be manipulated as there won't be enough demand once we're gone for a generation or two regardless or how long history says otherwise, or how serious the events that are supposed to trigger it as in the past.

Except for those in the East that may keep the collective memory. Or will they? Perhaps it will only take a bit longer.

Johnny Bee,
I will echo Flex, and say "yes, very valid points indeed"....and yes, it does seem as if the vast majority of our countrymen are completely unaware of the timeless intrinsic of PM's, or commodity money, but we should remember, this nation is a very YOUNG country, and is in empire status in a relatively brief time frame, which accounts for the seeming arrogance, that could prove to be our undoing.

That said, you might be right, these guys MIGHT be able to hold the whole wobbly mess together a lot longer than we can imagine. True, right now, global stock markets and debt instruments, etc.....and even the sheer volume of debt is GREAT cause for concern, China down 8 and half per cent yesterday?....we also have the very real threat of global warfare due to resource competition, or whipped up religious fervor, who knows what insane black swan will appear. NO ONE can "predict"...REALLY, "what's next"....they can opine, and that's valid.

I just went thru all physical commodity markets, energy, grains, livestock, softs....went thru the charts, daily, weekly, monthly, and they are all flashing deflation, especially in the last week, when viewed thru the daily bar charts. Maybe we might be in for an inflationary deflation, the worst of both worlds, which is why (obviously) the Ag stack is a very prudent currency insurance policy (and Au, if you have the fiat, which I don't, because i'm doing the "beans, bullets and bandaids"thing also, and though i'm VERY comfortable with my Ag stack,i don't have the resource to do Au as well)....

my 19 year old son, has definitely been schooled in the value of PM's, but at the same time,when the lad needed extra frns, he's had me go over to some neighbors, who have a "smart" phone, and walked me thru photographing a check, which he can deposit. Personally I wont have a "smart" phone...in fact, when I see the very word "smart" memed to "phone", I think its anything but....call it the "dumb" phone, a pressure point to make commerce cashless, which is something that's been pounded home via media.

I even wrote a tutorial for the lad on how to utilize the stack, when needed, so he doesn't get jammed, when i'm gone.
but I also found a neat resource, a slim book entitled "The Complete Guide to U.S. Junk Silver Coins"...by Brian Smith....just go to Amazon, its there for $10.79, and perfect to bring your heir(s) up to speed. some of its elementary to us, but it has weights, measurements of 90's and 40's, conversion tables, etc...plus it has the history of why the 1965 debasement of 90's, history which I didn't know PRECISELY. So I read it, made notes in the margins to him, and put it in the safe, on top of the lock boxes.

One can only really affect change in a 6 foot circle around yourself imo, but JB, those were some REALLY valid topics you brought up, n.

[John Reich]

One can only really affect change in a 6 foot circle around yourself , n.[/quote]

I agree with every thing Neil wrote, but his last sentence really spoke to me. I have my own "6 foot circle" and I really enjoy giving silver dollars as birthday presents, Christmas presents, etc. For people who have never been exposed to PM's there's a lot of "wow factor" in such a gift. Usually when we're talking about it the person recalls parents/grandparents or other people in their life who has a stash of silver coins. It's something that was buried in their memories, but needed a nudge to be brought to the surface. A couple of them have even started stacking! If each one of us has a 6 ft circle, how big would the collective circle be?

[neilgin1]

This is definitely a valid concern for any stacker.

With silver in particular, some wonder about whether so much of it could end up in landfills that there isn't enough for it to be used as money. Although that argument is nullified by divisibility from a monetary sense, it does apply in the practical sense somewhat in that A) the price of silver would have to rise substantially for there to be enough in circulation for every day use by the population, in which case you'd be carrying around very tiny pieces, or else B) if the price did not rise then yes there wouldn't be enough to go around because you'd need a large piece for a small unit of measure.

While "B" defies market equilibrium, we've seen that markets can be controlled for a time, but markets are always seeking equilibrium. It's like gravity, you can stand on one leg for a really long time, with ease at first even, but eventually gravity will beat you. Eventually, market manipulators will be outlasted by free market forces unless there is no market. How's that for reassuring!

Some have speculated it may be the goal of the elite to completely remove silver from existence by crushing the price and dumping it in landfills. Were that to be successful, it makes a good case to have some gold too.

Can it happen? Stranger things have. Will it happen? I doubt it.

The reason metals are money isn't because of decree or widespread support, both of which are helpful if not necessary, but not the cause which is because the intrinsic properties of metals are best suited to perform the function of money out of anything we know in existence. Fungible, divisible, durable, portable, and a store of wealth. Metals have been all of these things 100% of the time ever since the first human set eyes on them, and some attributes of those even transcend the human equation. Value only exists in our minds afterall. That they are elements, created only by supernovas (and probably the big bang) makes them truly unique and truly finite in the world and the universe. The universe is eventually going to run out of hydrogen atoms in the very distant future from all the nuclear fusion of stars living out their lives. That's not to say whether or not there will be a shortage outside our planet, but that's all I'm concerned about for the moment.

My point is that even if silver disappeared from consciousness, eventually, if humans ever go back to a less technological way of life, or alternatively if some choose not to go along with whatever technological advances are around the corner, the metal will fulfill its role as money in the event that people have a surplus of some kind and need a medium of exchange. Whether that will be of use to each individual person will depend on their circumstance.

Gold to me seems such a vital part of the human psyche though, I don't think it could ever be forgotten. It inspires something.

I also have a hard time seeing the current monetary system lasting another 10 years, let alone generations. Exponents move fast at the tail end.

Flex, without seeming to be kissing your hindquarters, there is no way you can tell me, you don't write and/or analyze professionally. You have an ultra fine "pen", and an equally adroit mind....all respect to you. Y'know, the talent on our little hideout here?, just blows me away sometimes.

you wrote:
"we've seen that markets can be controlled for a time, but markets are always seeking equilibrium. It's like gravity, you can stand on one leg for a really long time, with ease at first even, but eventually gravity will beat you. Eventually, market manipulators will be outlasted by free market forces unless there is no market."

all I can say is "yes and amen"....which leads into your conclusion:

"I also have a hard time seeing the current monetary system lasting another 10 years, let alone generations. Exponents move fast at the tail end."

again, I agree completely, but I have been surprised at how long these functionaries have been able to scramble and hold the whole thing together, especially "post Lehman". To me, its all, what I term, "the endless onion", you keep peeling back layer after layer, and one can never lay their hands on "truth". To this day, I am mystified on several counts, first, here we have the gatekeepers at the temple of the "free market" during the Lehman moment and instead of just letting the market "crash", and burn off all the junk, THEN trade out of it, as we did in Oct 1987, the global macro economy would be much better off. Sure, there would have been pain, but life sometimes is pain, and sometimes the days are not sunny. But that's the price of freedom, AND the wage of "moral hazard".....and to me, the very concept, "moral hazard" was pitched into the dustbin, which is a central pillar of dynamic free market capitalism, not this faux "corporatism" (or "crony capitalism")

Removing moral hazard from the structure was exactly the WRONG thing to do. I hear so much whining and bleating about "welfare" and "entitlements" in regards to luckless individual Americans, but these poor pikers are nothing compared to the banks, investment houses etc, who were bailed out when Hank Paulson rammed thru the first "TARP" of 700 billion USD, which really was the Fed cranking M3 up
http://dollarcollapse.com/wp-content/up ... e-2015.jpg

chart didn't transfer, it was too big

I cant find a precise M3 chart, the above MIGHT be, but when you look at the MV, monetary velocity chart, which as you know is the "blood flow" of money thru the economy, that chart is a disaster.
http://www.peterleeds.com/cms/velocity.jpg

this time, the chart was too big to show the downturn

I gotta stop writing, coz there's a storm coming in, and I got chores, but I just posit this; the corner we're in , is this paradigm of "infinite consumption hitting the wall of finite resources"...sometime we ARE going to hit that wall....and Flex, I'm not some limo liberal al gore type, but I DO think about the "carry capacity" of our small planet, yet fully realizing that YES, Chinese and Indians want to eat beef (well, maybe not Indians) and drive cars....and every couple DOES want offspring, children...that's healthy.

this might sound weird, but go with me for a second (i'm NOT a "one worlder", but let me just put this out there) I really wish, we as a species didn't have to spend so much treasure crafting more lethal and numerous implements of war, and could instead get real about space exploration, to the point, where humans could space travel at the speed of light times 75....for instance, an auto doesn't travel at ONE mile and hour.....think of the possibilities, if we could actually craft a vessel that could do 75 LYH, (light years an hour)...one could say, "oh, that's just in the movies", but remember that old film, that showed a vessel being shot into the moon?...people back then, must of thought that was folly....but in 1969, Neil Armstrong (rip) took that walk down that ladder onto the surface of the moon.

and we spend so much brain power and treasure crafting ever more efficient ways of killing one another, when we could spend all that combined energy, on how to REALLY slip the bounds of this solar system, and take a vessel and just RIP thru space... at night here, it gets so dark, i can see everything up in the heavens, and get sad, because i wish i had a "Millenium Falcon" parked on my pasture, lock the place, climb on board...and do this:

[pennypicker]

Flex, without seeming to be kissing your hindquarters, there is no way you can tell me, you don't write and/or analyze professionally.

I agree. I've always had a hunch that Inflexion was the one and only Rick Santelli from "Squawk on the Street"

[InfleXion]

I thank you both for the kind words! Rick Santelli and Nigel Farage are a couple of my favorite guys to listen to. I am a computer analyst, but that's as far as it goes for me professionally. Analytics is up my alley though, and I've always enjoyed math as well. This is all personal hobby, or rather, necessity as I see it. I thank the Lord for giving me the ability to think critically and to articulate myself, and a constant thirst for knowledge, some of which rattles around in the old noggin nearly forgotten until it's ready to crop back up again.

Neil, I too was surprised at the powers ability to continue to kick the can down the road after 2008. One major difference between then and now however is that it isn't a few private institutions that need bailing out, rather it has spread to sovereigns (those who typically do the bailing out) and the systemic risk is as global as ever. There are many other nations in the EU waiting for some resolution to Greece so they can follow the blueprint. I am hearing that Finland may need a bailout and is closing down businesses. Canada's economy looks like it is nose diving. Miners across the globe are shuttering operations because it isn't profitable enough. And we all know how things with the US/Japan/China work, to infinity and beyond. I don't like to be negative, but I think objectivity is important too. There aren't many places to deflect the debt to at this point, and it looks like the rate of change may be exceeding humanity's capacity to adapt (precursor to the rise of the machines, making complex decisions for us, but that's another story). It doesn't seem like the people in charge have control of the situation. My gut has a recurring them these days, get your house in order and don't sit idle when preparations could be made.

It would certainly be nice if we used our resources for human advancement, but I think Orwell said it best - the primary aim of modern warfare is to use up the products of the machine without raising the general standard of living. As long as power mongers are in power there will be a lot of wasted potential, but I think we should consider ourselves lucky and/or blessed that we have the foresight to stack metals, because I believe one day those of us who have done so will be in a position of influence in our communities once all the paper-mache comes off.

[johnbrickner]

Wow, I am always impressed by the quality and quantity of response by the membership and I greatly appreciate the view from other's eyes.

For the below I've snipped significant parts so to get a better handle on my reply and bolding areas of my major concern.

This is definitely a valid concern for any stacker.

Eventually, market manipulators will be outlasted by free market forces unless there is no market. How's that for reassuring!

The reason metals are money isn't because of decree or widespread support, both of which are helpful if not necessary, but not the cause which is because the intrinsic properties of metals are best suited to perform the function of money out of anything we know in existence. Fungible, divisible, durable, portable, and a store of wealth. Metals have been all of these things 100% of the time ever since the first human set eyes on them, and some attributes of those even transcend the human equation.

Value only exists in our minds after all.

Gold to me seems such a vital part of the human psyche though, I don't think it could ever be forgotten. It inspires something.

Let there be no mistake, I still stack, gold inspires me also, PM's intrinsic properties are as eternal, in a human historical sense. And I find little to nothing to disagree with in anyone's written word above. But I do see a change in the human psyche of our youth (those younger than I and the generation still alive ahead of me) when compared to the youth of earlier generations. I cannot speak for the youth of eastern cultures as my experience with them has been limited.

The value of the U. S. $100 bill exists because the combined consciousness of humanity has a critical mass that agree it has that value. This value is in transition to being digitized into virtual ones and zeros. So the mass of how we think can be changed, especially to those who are plugged into the technology. Personally, I think what is happening here is more insidious than the TV. If the critical mass of humanity think there is no value in PMs then they will not place part of their hard earned digits into them. This will enable those who do have the significant amounts of money to obtain and possess them.

In a debt economy like we have money is a future claim on resources and services. If the critical mass of human psyche no longer recognizes PMs as an alternative to economic mis-behavior and there is basically no avenue to obtain them anyway . . . would this not be a key to being able to perpetuate the current monetary system?

Call me paranoid.

[Treetop]

I hate to even be so cynical to think what I am about to write. When I look at the shape of global politics I see a chess board but not one I really see talked about in the context I see it from any sources I am aware of. A thousand other things Id add to the pictur eI see if I had the space and time. A very intricate game. The american and by extension the western empire. Looking at the shape of how the UN has functioned, the IMF the world bank, looking at how china and russia especially (being the strongest powers on the sidelines of the previously mentioned power structures) have related to this. The more I look I see much of the last few decades, in this light. The way these global entities related to the cold war, as well as the military of the west, the Us military. A big part of this has been the dollar as reserve currency. Even all this unchecked immigration, helping to ensure growth, cant rely on constant growth with a shrinking population. Our debt? We all know this paradigm cannot stand forever. Well guess what? "they" know it as well. We know of the rise of what one might call the police state. We know of fema and then homeland security. We know of the government arming itself domestically.

Both russia and china have made moves encroaching on neighbors and hinted at extending this. Was the american empire built solely out of greed? I dont buy that anymore. Not in the global context I see now. I think we might be looking at the west intending to ensure no other power base rises above the west. After years of russia mentioning their ability to crush the Us dollar we kick them in the teeth with a grin. This would imply to me if my assessment has any merit that the pieces are already in place. The west is ready for ww3.

If it was the openly discussed plan to structure our society around a global empire geared towards ensuring continuity domestically through extreme upheavals, and ensure the western interests dwarf anything who might stand to them, many bleeding hearts would have shut it down decades ago. Assuming I have any merit to the shape of what I see of course. To various mindsets looking at this, we see the outside edges then fill in the blanks. Conclusions drawn often galvanize around an elite class doing this for their own benefit, corrupt leaders buying into corporate cronyism. But is this shadow we see reflected off the actual happenings the full picture? The more I look I think perhaps much of this (with many getting rich in the process of course and securing their own position) was a means to an end. The end being ensuring the west doesnt fall to the next hitler or stalin or mao.

So if Im right at all, and I can make a much more elaborate case for this then I laid out here then if "TPTB" feel they cannot float the empire anymore the gloves will come all the way off and the real fight will begin. China is a rising star and one clearly standing against the values of the west as much as russia ever has. I expect western interests have no intention in the world of being the underdog to china, and they know full well the current paradigm cannot stand forever. Another 5 years? 10 20? I dunno but by 2030 close to our full budget will be just medicaid, medicare and SS. I cant imagine we could maintain this even that long but who knows.

So hopefully I read everything wrong but if I have any merit to the shape of how things seem to me then there will be war before any real reset, and the survivors should there be any wont be blaming fractional reserve banking getting out of hand, debt, or related issues for the lower living standards, they will blame the war.

Ive heard ideas like "they" wont let us profit from our silver and gold, but I doubt they care in this context. Rather they just want to ensure such investments are rare so we dont internally trigger something that forces their hand. If the empire itself is betting against the dollar they have a much harder time keeping things running until the ball is ready to drop. If this is true at all, then once things go past a certain line there is no real reason to control metals at all. Doesnt mean it wouldnt happen but it wouldnt hinder what seems to me to be the main goals of the empire assuring survival whether from real or imagined threats.

Lots more Id say if we were all sitting around the fire in my backyard. At this point if I were to bet on it though I dont think we will ever see the reset all of us know is inevitable on this current track. It was a means to an end. Based on a few key moves I expect if I am right those driving the western empire are ready to engage already. They wont be caught off guard.

Even if I read into things horribly wrong I dont believe for a second there arent plans in place for whatever reset might come. But does anyone really think they will stand by as the west is on its knees for a generation or more as china potentially still rises and russia and china both make moves on their neighbors? The western powers imo have proven way to ruthless to believe that for a second.

[68Camaro]

As has been said, we're already well into Atlas Shrugged - take out the bad semi-romance novel parts and what an amazingly prescient book she wrote 70 years ago! (At least the first 2/3 of it.) To her, at the time, the relatively subtle clues and trends of the time told her what path we were on, which was oblivious to most then, and even still today. Unfortunately her blueprint falls apart at about two-thirds point; her ending is not possible. There is no fantastic atheist technical utopian solution coming for us (or even possible). In the absence of that, what does history tell us happens next? Some type of totalitarianism, war, or some combination of both.

Because of that, to keep a smile on my face and give some hope to my children, I have to put my faith and interest in something higher.

[knibloe]

to keep a smile on my face and give some hope to my children, I have to put my faith and interest in something higher.

Amen to that!!

"If ye are prepared ye shall not fear. " Preparation comes in many forms. The best preparation is spiritual. Once you spiritual house is in order, you can work on preparations in other areas. We cannot change a lot of things in this world, but we can trust God. If our trust is in Him, nothing else matters.

[neilgin1]

to keep a smile on my face and give some hope to my children, I have to put my faith and interest in something higher.

Amen to that!!

"If ye are prepared ye shall not fear. " Preparation comes in many forms. The best preparation is spiritual. Once you spiritual house is in order, you can work on preparations in other areas. We cannot change a lot of things in this world, but we can trust God. If our trust is in Him, nothing else matters.

and allow me to amen, your amen, or as Dr. Martin Luther King said in a sermon, "Don't be a fool! Recognize your dependence on God!....or as the prophet Isaiah wrote, "If you are not firm in faith, you are not firm at all".

[Mossy]

Ive heard ideas like "they" wont let us profit from our silver and gold, but I doubt they care in this context. Rather they just want to ensure such investments are rare so we dont internally trigger something that forces their hand. If the empire itself is betting against the dollar they have a much harder time keeping things running until the ball is ready to drop. If this is true at all, then once things go past a certain line there is no real reason to control metals at all. Doesnt mean it wouldnt happen but it wouldnt hinder what seems to me to be the main goals of the empire assuring survival whether from real or imagined threats.

I'm certain that PMs are not that important to "their" overall plan, except that PM breaking loose would cause a lot of people to look where "they" don't want us to look. Eventually, what PMs look like will not matter to them and will no longer be actively controlled.

Measures put in place to control PM will, of course, be kept in place for several decades.

Meanwhile, our nerves are going to be tried.

Of course, this is probably not stated elsewhere because it is so obvious.

[InfleXion]

In a debt economy like we have money is a future claim on resources and services. If the critical mass of human psyche no longer recognizes PMs as an alternative to economic mis-behavior and there is basically no avenue to obtain them anyway . . . would this not be a key to being able to perpetuate the current monetary system?

Call me paranoid.

While I completely agree that this is a key to perpetuate the current monetary system, I don't believe for a second that it is achievable. Gold didn't become precious because people were told that it was. It just is. Telling people it isn't might work to some degree, but I don't think it can undermine human instinct.

[silverstacker]

In a debt economy like we have money is a future claim on resources and services. If the critical mass of human psyche no longer recognizes PMs as an alternative to economic mis-behavior and there is basically no avenue to obtain them anyway . . . would this not be a key to being able to perpetuate the current monetary system?

Call me paranoid.

While I completely agree that this is a key to perpetuate the current monetary system, I don't believe for a second that it is achievable. Gold didn't become precious because people were told that it was. It just is. Telling people it isn't might work to some degree, but I don't think it can undermine human instinct.

I completely agree! Since the beginning of time Gold has been recognized as a unit of exchange and don't for a second think that this will change. In the case of an event that disrupts the monetary system, gold has been known throughout history and will continue to be recognized as such. IMO

[NHsorter]

Don't want to divert the thread, but does anyone here have any concern about scientific advances that might lead to the creation of gold, or the mining of gold(or other PMs) from space. I know that right now it is not economical or feasible, but the exponential nature of science and physics that we have seen does sometimes give me pause. Who is to say that in 20 years, it is not a completely different game and now there is 10X or 100X more gold available?

Totally unrelated, but have any of you read up on CRISPR? It's just a recent example of a crazy breakthrough that could have tremendous implications in a very short time frame if it is what is being advertised. On one hand it is cool imagining all of the cool things that could be done. But it is equally or more scary in other respects.

Interesting times..... Seems like evolution (including evolution of money!) had been pretty slow paced throughout history. But I feel as though we are entering an era of accelerated evolution, whether organic or synthetic. Simultaneously intriguing and scary.

Or.... I just drank one too many of these delicious Sixpoint Resin IIPA's and this is just a bunch of drooling poppycock. Carry on brothers!

[fansubs_ca]

Don't want to divert the thread, but does anyone here have any concern about scientific advances that might lead to the creation of gold, or the mining of gold(or other PMs) from space.

Space mining might have some impact but do keep in mind it takes a certain
price threashold just to make mining Gold economical here on earth. A
threashold we are very close to at the current price.

As for synthesising Gold by transmuting other elements I don't think that will
really come into play, most nuclear reactions either:

A: Take a rare element and transmute in into a more common one, example:
http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/meda ... /dimes.htm
So don't let your silver get irradiated. ^_-
B: Require a massive amount of energy, I have read about a few thousand atoms
of artificial Gold being made in an experiment but that's a really tiny amount of
Gold and a huge amount of energy was required so mining remains far far more
economical that transmuting.

Consider that it takes a Supernova to make any element heavier than iron in nature.

Basically atoms don't nessecarrily split or fuse in the way most convenient to us.

[neilgin1]

Don't want to divert the thread, but does anyone here have any concern about scientific advances that might lead to the creation of gold, or the mining of gold(or other PMs) from space. I know that right now it is not economical or feasible, but the exponential nature of science and physics that we have seen does sometimes give me pause. Who is to say that in 20 years, it is not a completely different game and now there is 10X or 100X more gold available?

Totally unrelated, but have any of you read up on CRISPR? It's just a recent example of a crazy breakthrough that could have tremendous implications in a very short time frame if it is what is being advertised. On one hand it is cool imagining all of the cool things that could be done. But it is equally or more scary in other respects.

Interesting times..... Seems like evolution (including evolution of money!) had been pretty slow paced throughout history. But I feel as though we are entering an era of accelerated evolution, whether organic or synthetic. Simultaneously intriguing and scary.

Or.... I just drank one too many of these delicious Sixpoint Resin IIPA's and this is just a bunch of drooling poppycock. Carry on brothers!

OKAY!!! lets talk and reason here!

you wrote:
"or the mining of gold(or other PMs) from space. I know that right now it is not economical or feasible, but the exponential nature of science and physics that we have seen does sometimes give me pause. Who is to say that in 20 years, it is not a completely different game and now there is 10X or 100X more gold available? "


first, lets just hope that mankind and his darkened heart, doesn't salt the planet with fire in the form of the nuclear weapons in the next 20 years, which would be a marvelous miracle, considering how many sick f####s are in positions of power.

that aside, i'm 55 and a little sad, that we probably wont be able to rip thru space, and do some REAL exploration, like I said before, in the ability to travel at multiples of light speed in my lifetime, because I would be elbowing my way to the top of the line, in the spirit of Magellan or Columbus......AND if we did find 100 times more gold, out THERE?

SOUND MONEY......back money with gold?!?....instead of this fiat system?....open up new worlds?...a generation of new pioneers?.........it would be a dream....and not to sound nutty, but what about different life forms out there?....we humans cant even get along, if we go out there....far, and encounter intelligent life, we best develop GOOD MANNERS real quick. and not do the colonial trip, that the Spanish did, or our national forefathers. because while "we" were able to subjugate the indigenous tribes in North America.......way out there?....light years away?....we pull that "i am white man, hear me roar, in numbers too big to ignore"....we might find ourselves turned into tiny piles of carbon before you could say "Lash Larue", because we stumbled upon a civilization of life forms a thousand times more advanced and more lethal than us.

one of my areas of fascination, that I never got to do in this life, is answer the question, what became of the Neanderthal?
a lot of the dig sites are in Europe, and the latest finds and sites date out at 24,000 years ago, although you could possibly have had tiny frightened bands, in the 18,000 to 12,000 years ago time frame....carbon dating has a varied plus or minus. I believe and would have loved via scholarship PROVE that Neanderthals were victims of the FIRST multi thousand year "ethic cleansing", the perpetual "US VERSUS THEM" human tragedy that continues to this very day.....(Yogi Berra of course the last real living physical Neanderthal, but that's a discussion for another day)

We humans can make the most brilliant scientific advances, but what curses us all, is that underlying all that brilliance, is a very primitive nature, with a tendency for evil illogical brutality, which is being compounded these days by ill-advised forays by big pharma into some unwise, unnecessary "medicines".....but I digress.....and here's Dan the Firewood Man, as I am letting my woods relax this season....fella tells me he cut me a lot of Shagbark Hickory, which is the single malt of firewood.....yippee!

we out, n

[InfleXion]

Asteroids contain mainly iridium, which I had considered investing in prior to learning that. I don't see the amount of precious metals coming out of asteroids being significant to markets unless we've got hordes of nanobots out mining the solar system.

I do agree with the exponential nature of technological advancement. For the last 10 years even there have been computers running off of light instead of electricity that are millions of times faster than your average retail computer. Having the technology is one thing, but deploying it en masse for practical use is another. That requires a lot more money, a lot of coordatination and planning, and skilled people on board to execute the plan. That is where I see the bottleneck, not so much with having the ability, but having the means, at least until such time as machines can advance without human intervention to make better use of the technology. If that happens, the price of gold could be the least of our problems, but no matter what happens there will always be a need for a medium of exchange as long as people own things.

[Treetop]

Asteroids contain mainly iridium, which I had considered investing in prior to learning that. I don't see the amount of precious metals coming out of asteroids being significant to markets unless we've got hordes of nanobots out mining the solar system.

Pretty sure you mis understood this or were hearing about a specific asteroid. You might have heard the iridium we mine on earth is from asteroids originally. None of earths stayed in its crust, its expected back in earths molten era it moved somewhere to earths core.

Basically all metals we trade will be obsolete when/if asteroid mining becomes technologically possible. honestly this is very likely to happen in the next few decades, we already landed the first craft on a moving comet just recently. We dont need nano bots that Im aware of. This is the main reason I like silver more although it could readily suffer the same fate. Its just cheap enough the first few missions it might be left behind.

One M class asteroid being looked at to be the first target is one of the smallest known in the M-class and is expected to have 20 trillion in metals on it. 8 trillion of that in platinum. Another looked at had an estimated 100k tons of platinum and 10k tonnes of gold. Each one is a bit different. The first company to do this will likely become the wealthiest company on earth as soon as they get their payload home. Already there is a push for laws that a company mining such a body owns the materials it collects.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... /15628831/

or this

http://mashable.com/2012/04/26/planetar ... trillions/

On a related note does anyone here honestly believe the US has no ability currently to get humans to space while we borrow rides from russia? I dont, I expect when we retired the shuttle it was because we had its replacement already.

[InfleXion]

Asteroids contain mainly iridium, which I had considered investing in prior to learning that. I don't see the amount of precious metals coming out of asteroids being significant to markets unless we've got hordes of nanobots out mining the solar system.

Pretty sure you mis understood this or were hearing about a specific asteroid. You might have heard the iridium we mine on earth is from asteroids originally. None of earths stayed in its crust, its expected back in earths molten era it moved somewhere to earths core.

Basically all metals we trade will be obsolete when/if asteroid mining becomes technologically possible. honestly this is very likely to happen in the next few decades, we already landed the first craft on a moving comet just recently. We dont need nano bots that Im aware of. This is the main reason I like silver more although it could readily suffer the same fate. Its just cheap enough the first few missions it might be left behind.

One M class asteroid being looked at to be the first target is one of the smallest known in the M-class and is expected to have 20 trillion in metals on it. 8 trillion of that in platinum. Another looked at had an estimated 100k tons of platinum and 10k tonnes of gold. Each one is a bit different. The first company to do this will likely become the wealthiest company on earth as soon as they get their payload home. Already there is a push for laws that a company mining such a body owns the materials it collects.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... /15628831/

or this

http://mashable.com/2012/04/26/planetar ... trillions/

On a related note does anyone here honestly believe the US has no ability currently to get humans to space while we borrow rides from russia? I dont, I expect when we retired the shuttle it was because we had its replacement already.

I forget which show I was watching, but the part I recall was covering the asteroid Ceres which is technically a dwarf planet. In doing more research, apparently there are 3 types of asteroids, so it depends on the type, but yes definitely plenty of metals to be had from an M-class. Still, just because there is a lot of metal out there doesn't mean it will suddenly flood the market. Asteroids aren't exactly in our neighborhood, and there is plenty that can go wrong. A (corporate) shuttle blew up just trying to get supplies to the space station not long ago. In order for this to ever be viable for corporations, the profit would have to outweigh the cost, and while it's certainly possible I don't see the infrastructure being in place for well beyond 20 years from now. Sure, the government could do it and subsidize the cost, but still no real point unless it's profitable unless there is an outright industrial metal shortage.

I do think for this to be viable that the government would need to step in and make sure things get done properly. Waiting for private sector trial and error would take considerably longer.

This leads into another point. By the time this technology is actually viable, the state of government will be a pretty key factor. If we end up in John Titor's future, there may not even be satellite capabilities.

I'm not sure what to think about whether we can actually get to the space station or not. I wouldn't be surprised if we had something tucked away, but asking for rides from Russia has got to hurt somebody's pride.

[Treetop]

I don't see the infrastructure being in place for well beyond 20 years from now. Sure, the government could do it and subsidize the cost, but still no real point unless it's profitable unless there is an outright industrial metal shortage.

............ If we end up in John Titor's future, there won't even be satellite capabilities.

Honestly I expect with the laws being pushed for and the particular entities talking about building exactly the infrastructure you speak of that government helping or not helping might not weigh in to much on this. There are 20 trillion dollar rocks floating around out there. I definitely agree its likely past the 20 year range. Happening within 10 would probably be full force ahead no costs considered and 15 highly optimistic based on what Ive been reading. (assuming no currently secret but previously built tech is used which I dont discount).

LOL, I love the john titor story. Except I mean he claimed to not only be from another time, but another timeline/dimension. This one was close enough to his own that things were very similar, he never even expected to make it home but rather hoped hed walk into a third similar future similar to his own that needed the same item he had come for, and that some other him or another walked into his original dimension with said item. Some early computer. We know we arent on the same timeline he was though, by 2008 in his timeline the US was fully into a civil war. He did say many very uncanny things that make him either a very clever and even bordering on prescient figure or his story was true and he came from a different but similar version of earth.

[68Camaro]

We'll see $50,000/oz gold, or I'll be long dead, or both, before we ever see sufficiently economical space travel able to harvest non-terrestrial metals. If ever. For the foreseeable future we couldn't execute that mission for the cost of the GDP of the entire globe. That's why we'd best pray that we'll never see a killer asteroid on an earth-intersecting trajectory, because (no matter what Hollywood suggests) we wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Might we find some new technologies over time. Certainly. But things are far tougher to actually execute than Popular Science suggests. For example we know the physics involved with fusion, and we've been trying to execute it for decades, and we still can't do it.

Ultimately it's all about energy. The energy expenditure required to harvest any of these potential sources is just enormous, and far higher than any power sources we can create. Frankly, if we had that much power actually available, that cheaply, we probably wouldn't much care about gold in the first place, or if we did we would be extracting all those elements from sea water (along with an infinite supply of fresh water).

It's all about the energy....

[johnbrickner]

I absolutely love where this discussion has meandered and gone to. Please continue.

On a plus note, I've been Uncle John for many years now with my wife's east coast family. Currently I'm in SoCal giving my older sister a break from being the long distance care giver for my parents. This evening, I had 3 nephews from my side of the family sitting at the table tolerating my questions on how they see the current state of events and the world thru their eyes.

I now either have hope or my nephews are more aware than I give credit to the average 23 to 30 year old. Or I am completely wrong about how aware these young people are. I won't go into all the details but, they seemed to either hit spot on, on many of the concerns we share on this forum or they did a decent job poking on the edges of the topics. They also struggled to find ANYTHING positive to say, and said so.

They were very specific about the whole distraction thing the media plays to them and shared my concern about individuals being plugged into the technology and it not only decreasing their awareness but also added it's preventing cohesiveness at the community level. Interesting is they all fessed up that outside of their jobs, they don't answer their e-mails as "if you are not part of my inner circle texting me, it isn't important enough for me to deal with".

Additionally, they were very enthusiastic about technology (I didn't get the chance to tell them I was a Neo-Ludite as I mostly kept my mouth zipped) but, were concerned it wasn't being used quick enough to solve known problems. In any case, I was left with the idea my sisters did a fine job raising their sons to men. Most refreshing.