Realcent.org

Posted: **Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:04 pm**

I got my new Ryedale.

This machine is brand new and never used. (Model Number:300-L) I sorted through 5 boxes instantly with no hiccups. After completing the fifth box and beginning the sixth, I began experiencing problems.

The moment that I started sorting box number 6, the machine began shooting coppers at a strange and unpredictable trajectory. (see "TRAJECTORY PATHS" pic for visual clarity)

: TRAJECTORY PATHS; RYE-BOTTOM.jpg (119.12 KiB) Viewed 967 times

This particular trajectory was too erratic and spewed most coppers into the zinc pile rendering my efforts useless.

I must state that I am very technical and of the "engineering type" if you will. I began attempting to isolate the problem. Eventually, I found what I thought to be the root cause of the problem, the "Coin Cushion".

I am not familiar with how Ryedale refers to this part so please see the "COIN CUSHION" Pic for visual clarity.

: COIN CUSHION; RYE-Piece.jpg (43.8 KiB) Viewed 967 times

I call this the Coin Cushion because its only apparent job is to somewhat "Cushion" the coin, slowing it down before it enters coin comparator / ejector.

Here is a front side view displaying where it resides on the unit. (Please see "FRONT VIEW" pic) (The part has been removed in this pic)

: FRONT VIEW; RYE-FRONT.jpg (92.13 KiB) Viewed 967 times

Once determining this to be root cause of the problem, I reassembled the part, tighten it down and began sorting again. I double sorted box number 6, and to be sure that the machine was accurate, I triple sorted box number 4 and 5 - all with ease of use and verifiable accuracy. ( I hand sorted the zincs of box 4, 5 and 6 to ensure the machine was accurate.) (Zero coppers found in the zinc pile/ Zero zincs in the copper pile)

At this point, I determined that I should be good for about a couple million more pennies and that re-securing and tightening down the "coin cushion" did the trick. However, this is not the case.

Instantly upon pushing box number 7 through, I experienced the exact same trajectory displacement issues. This time I assaulted the "coin cushion" first. I manipulated the pressure of the screw which holds the piece in place from maximum tightness to minimum (keep in mind this is only about a two thread screw) all with negative results. I tried every possible combination of manipulation that you can think of on this machine, all of which yielded no solution. The copper displacement still appears exactly like the "TRAJECTORY PATHS" pic.

I have concluded, at this point that the "Coin Cushion" is slowing the coins down significantly enough that it is interfering with the effective operation of the solenoid which manually "decides" whether the coin goes into the zinc pile or the copper pile. I realize that the coin comparator actually makes the decision which sends the electrical pulse to the solenoid etc.. However, it appears that the "coin cushion" is hanging the coppers up to the point in which they slightly "bump" the "rake" just after the solenoid returns to its normal "reject" state after just being fired (activated) from a previous copper. SO, more easily read, the timing between the coin cushion and the solenoid/Rake seem to interfere with the operation of the extraction of coppers. (I hope I explained this clearly enough)

I finally decided to remove the coin cushion completely. This method of repair yielded positive results! (coppers ran normal trajectory, zincs ran normal trajectory) Thus, I ran box number 7 and then hand sorted the zincs, found zero coppers and zero zincs in the copper pile. It was a great turn out and a sigh of relief after much stress and anger.
I subsequently ran 3 more boxes and double sorted them, all with positive results. I seem to have no issues whatsoever after removing the coin cushion.

The only difference in operation that I see with the "Coin Cushion" being removed is that the coins seem to "smack" the bottom of my collection buckets harder. (They seem to be traveling at a greater rate of speed)

Has anybody experienced similar problems? If so, how did you go about fixing this? I don't mind sorting in the future without the use of the "Coin Cushion". However, I eventually plan to sell my machine as "used" and image that consumers will have a problem without the effective operation of the "Coin Cushion" so I would like to fix it. Can anybody tell me what the "Coin Cushion" actually is or what it does and how to fix it?

Thanks!

Posted: **Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:51 am**

I couldn't read all that.

Nothing was wrong with your Ryedale.
Set it on a solid surface, not a stack of books.

Posted: **Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:05 am**

zKott wrote:I got my new Ryedale.

This machine is brand new and never used. (Model Number:300-L) I sorted through 5 boxes instantly with no hiccups. After completing the fifth box and beginning the sixth, I began experiencing problems.

The moment that I started sorting box number 6, the machine began shooting coppers at a strange and unpredictable trajectory. (see "TRAJECTORY PATHS" pic for visual clarity)
RYE-BOTTOM.jpg

This particular trajectory was too erratic and spewed most coppers into the zinc pile rendering my efforts useless.

This could be caused by a small piece of adhesive, or paper being partially trapped in the "rake assembly" or "Rake Arm" which is the part that actually moves in and out to accept or reject coins.
Remove the comparitor and check it. It has happened often and causes this ettatic trajectory.. IT could also be that the rake arm is not fully opening or opening slightly crooked. You may just need a new comparitor. I don't know Realcent user names vs real names, so contact me directly. If the machine is brand new, and you got it from me which I suspect you did, then it's under warranty as long as it's not manipulated beyond the way we ship it out.
andy@ryedalecoin.com

I must state that I am very technical and of the "engineering type" if you will. I began attempting to isolate the problem. Eventually, I found what I thought to be the root cause of the problem, the "Coin Cushion".

I am not familiar with how Ryedale refers to this part so please see the "COIN CUSHION" Pic for visual clarity.
RYE-Piece.jpg

I call this the Coin Cushion because its only apparent job is to somewhat "Cushion" the coin, slowing it down before it enters coin comparator / ejector.

Here is a front side view displaying where it resides on the unit. (Please see "FRONT VIEW" pic) (The part has been removed in this pic)
RYE-FRONT.jpg

Once determining this to be root cause of the problem, I reassembled the part, tighten it down and began sorting again. I double sorted box number 6, and to be sure that the machine was accurate, I triple sorted box number 4 and 5 - all with ease of use and verifiable accuracy. ( I hand sorted the zincs of box 4, 5 and 6 to ensure the machine was accurate.) (Zero coppers found in the zinc pile/ Zero zincs in the copper pile)

At this point, I determined that I should be good for about a couple million more pennies and that re-securing and tightening down the "coin cushion" did the trick. However, this is not the case.

Instantly upon pushing box number 7 through, I experienced the exact same trajectory displacement issues. This time I assaulted the "coin cushion" first. I manipulated the pressure of the screw which holds the piece in place from maximum tightness to minimum (keep in mind this is only about a two thread screw) all with negative results. I tried every possible combination of manipulation that you can think of on this machine, all of which yielded no solution. The copper displacement still appears exactly like the "TRAJECTORY PATHS" pic.

I have concluded, at this point that the "Coin Cushion" is slowing the coins down significantly enough that it is interfering with the effective operation of the solenoid which manually "decides" whether the coin goes into the zinc pile or the copper pile. I realize that the coin comparator actually makes the decision which sends the electrical pulse to the solenoid etc.. However, it appears that the "coin cushion" is hanging the coppers up to the point in which they slightly "bump" the "rake" just after the solenoid returns to its normal "reject" state after just being fired (activated) from a previous copper. SO, more easily read, the timing between the coin cushion and the solenoid/Rake seem to interfere with the operation of the extraction of coppers. (I hope I explained this clearly enough)

I finally decided to remove the coin cushion completely. This method of repair yielded positive results! (coppers ran normal trajectory, zincs ran normal trajectory) Thus, I ran box number 7 and then hand sorted the zincs, found zero coppers and zero zincs in the copper pile. It was a great turn out and a sigh of relief after much stress and anger.
I subsequently ran 3 more boxes and double sorted them, all with positive results. I seem to have no issues whatsoever after removing the coin cushion.

The only difference is operation that I see with the "Coin Cushion" being removed is that the coins seem to "smack" the bottom of my collection buckets harder. (They seem to be traveling at a greater rate of speed)

Has anybody experienced similar problems? If so, how did you go about fixing this? I don't mind sorting in the future without the use of the "Coin Cushion". However, I eventually plan to sell my machine as "used" and image that consumers will have a problem without the effective operation of the "Coin Cushion" so I would like to fix it. Can anybody tell me what the "Coin Cushion" actually is or what it does and how to fix it?

Thanks!

Posted: **Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:13 am**

Just FYI to all,
The Coin Cushion is called the Dampener Arm.
It's function is slow down slightly, but more importantly cause the coin to stay to the left as it passes through the coils. This forces it to "eclipse" the sample coin and get the best possible reading for the "Compare" function (thus Comparator name of the device)

Dumb question to zKott.. You are running with a sample coin in the "Slide to replace coin" spot right?

Andy

Posted: **Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:25 am**

I was thinking maybe the sample coin was not properly seated. I would check to make sure it is fully seated and make sure a spring has not fallen off. Try dropping a British 2 pence coin through the comparitor.. it it makes it through without stopping you have found the problem. :mrgreen:

Posted: **Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:28 am**

Check the spring tension on the gate. :mrgreen:

Posted: **Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:26 am**

Have not seen a Ryedale that clean in a long time :lol:

Posted: **Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:28 am**

CU Baker wrote:Have not seen a Ryedale that clean in a long time

That's 'cause it's new. :mrgreen:

Posted: **Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:05 pm**

I always jammed a piece of cardboard under it to keep the "cushioner" out of the way. Worst thing I had happen after that was lost cardboard squares. And bank boxes missing flaps.

Posted: **Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:46 pm**

I use the same comparator in a homebrew sorter. My hopper & chute are quite different from the Ryedale so my observation may not apply.

I found that I had much better results if I propped the cushioner (I call it a flapper) open with a spring. I also modified the comparator circuit to keep the rake open longer for each compare match. My hopper feeds fewer coins per second than the Ryedale and I found that by extending the rake "open" time, I had many fewer jams resulting from coins getting pinned by the rake.

You've got the best customer support available at your disposal, follow Andy's advice and use the warranty if necessary. But, definitely first try a solid surface as pointed out by HCBTT. Also, many have had luck shimming the rig to tip slightly forward.

Posted: **Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:48 pm**

RichardPenny43 wrote:I couldn't read all that.

Nothing was wrong with your Ryedale.
Set it on a solid surface, not a stack of books.

Thank you RichardPenny,

Evidently the third pic of my Ryedale sitting atop a solid granite counter top created no visual affinity for you as you mentioned that you "couldn't read all that". If you had, you may have distinguished that the pic of the Ryedale sitting atop the books was merely an attempt to elevate the machine to show the underside which was at question for purposes of visual clarity for the readers. You failed to suggest that I lay it flat along my granite piece however, which disappoints me. Perhaps you were too busy to view the pics as well. Furthermore, you must have failed to read the part in which I mentioned that I am beyond the average consumer in technical prowess therefore, I am quite familiar with how to effectively operate a carpenters level to ensure my Ryedale is working on a pile of books or for that matter, a pile of pennies, should they be flat and level. Nevertheless, thanks for the suggestion, but I am still having difficulty with the Dampener Arm.

By the way, I also have a solid Oak Coffee table, a whole solid walnut dinner table and various butcher block work surfaces in addition to my solid maple work bench. Are there any other surfaces that you would prefer me to run the RD on?

Posted: **Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:06 am**

Ryedale wrote:
zKott wrote:I got my new Ryedale.

This machine is brand new and never used. (Model Number:300-L) I sorted through 5 boxes instantly with no hiccups. After completing the fifth box and beginning the sixth, I began experiencing problems.

The moment that I started sorting box number 6, the machine began shooting coppers at a strange and unpredictable trajectory. (see "TRAJECTORY PATHS" pic for visual clarity)
RYE-BOTTOM.jpg

This particular trajectory was too erratic and spewed most coppers into the zinc pile rendering my efforts useless.

This could be caused by a small piece of adhesive, or paper being partially trapped in the "rake assembly" or "Rake Arm" which is the part that actually moves in and out to accept or reject coins.
Remove the comparitor and check it. It has happened often and causes this ettatic trajectory.. IT could also be that the rake arm is not fully opening or opening slightly crooked. You may just need a new comparitor. I don't know Realcent user names vs real names, so contact me directly. If the machine is brand new, and you got it from me which I suspect you did, then it's under warranty as long as it's not manipulated beyond the way we ship it out.
andy@ryedalecoin.com

I must state that I am very technical and of the "engineering type" if you will. I began attempting to isolate the problem. Eventually, I found what I thought to be the root cause of the problem, the "Coin Cushion".

I am not familiar with how Ryedale refers to this part so please see the "COIN CUSHION" Pic for visual clarity.
RYE-Piece.jpg

I call this the Coin Cushion because its only apparent job is to somewhat "Cushion" the coin, slowing it down before it enters coin comparator / ejector.

Here is a front side view displaying where it resides on the unit. (Please see "FRONT VIEW" pic) (The part has been removed in this pic)
RYE-FRONT.jpg

Once determining this to be root cause of the problem, I reassembled the part, tighten it down and began sorting again. I double sorted box number 6, and to be sure that the machine was accurate, I triple sorted box number 4 and 5 - all with ease of use and verifiable accuracy. ( I hand sorted the zincs of box 4, 5 and 6 to ensure the machine was accurate.) (Zero coppers found in the zinc pile/ Zero zincs in the copper pile)

At this point, I determined that I should be good for about a couple million more pennies and that re-securing and tightening down the "coin cushion" did the trick. However, this is not the case.

Instantly upon pushing box number 7 through, I experienced the exact same trajectory displacement issues. This time I assaulted the "coin cushion" first. I manipulated the pressure of the screw which holds the piece in place from maximum tightness to minimum (keep in mind this is only about a two thread screw) all with negative results. I tried every possible combination of manipulation that you can think of on this machine, all of which yielded no solution. The copper displacement still appears exactly like the "TRAJECTORY PATHS" pic.

I have concluded, at this point that the "Coin Cushion" is slowing the coins down significantly enough that it is interfering with the effective operation of the solenoid which manually "decides" whether the coin goes into the zinc pile or the copper pile. I realize that the coin comparator actually makes the decision which sends the electrical pulse to the solenoid etc.. However, it appears that the "coin cushion" is hanging the coppers up to the point in which they slightly "bump" the "rake" just after the solenoid returns to its normal "reject" state after just being fired (activated) from a previous copper. SO, more easily read, the timing between the coin cushion and the solenoid/Rake seem to interfere with the operation of the extraction of coppers. (I hope I explained this clearly enough)

I finally decided to remove the coin cushion completely. This method of repair yielded positive results! (coppers ran normal trajectory, zincs ran normal trajectory) Thus, I ran box number 7 and then hand sorted the zincs, found zero coppers and zero zincs in the copper pile. It was a great turn out and a sigh of relief after much stress and anger.
I subsequently ran 3 more boxes and double sorted them, all with positive results. I seem to have no issues whatsoever after removing the coin cushion.

The only difference is operation that I see with the "Coin Cushion" being removed is that the coins seem to "smack" the bottom of my collection buckets harder. (They seem to be traveling at a greater rate of speed)

Has anybody experienced similar problems? If so, how did you go about fixing this? I don't mind sorting in the future without the use of the "Coin Cushion". However, I eventually plan to sell my machine as "used" and image that consumers will have a problem without the effective operation of the "Coin Cushion" so I would like to fix it. Can anybody tell me what the "Coin Cushion" actually is or what it does and how to fix it?

Thanks!

Mr. "Ryedale",

Thank you for your response and your suggestion. However, I removed the comparator first and there is definitely no blockage to the rake assembly or rake arm.
It could be as you suggested, an issue with the rake arm not fully opening. But that confuses me as to why removing the "dampening arm" eliminates the problem.
I would tend to agree with you about the "rake" not fully extending properly however, when I remove the dampening arm, it functions flawlessly - leading me to believe that there is no problem with the rake function. You know much more than I on this matter and as you asked, I will contact you directly. Thank you.

Posted: **Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:28 am**

Ryedale wrote:Just FYI to all,
The Coin Cushion is called the Dampener Arm.
It's function is slow down slightly, but more importantly cause the coin to stay to the left as it passes through the coils. This forces it to "eclipse" the sample coin and get the best possible reading for the "Compare" function (thus Comparator name of the device)

Dumb question to zKott.. You are running with a sample coin in the "Slide to replace coin" spot right?

Andy

Ryedale,

Again, thank you - and to answer your question ... Absolutely. I have an AU 1973 running as my sample.

I have tried multiple coins and trust me when I say that I have tried hundreds of different positions of "setting" the sample coin in just right. To make my point more clearly, my sample coin is definitely set in the exact same way as the first five boxes that I sorted with no hiccups. To add to that fact, once removing the "dampening arm" my sample coins still do a fantastic job as a "comparator". When replacing the dampening arm with the sample coin in the exact spot, I receive the erratic trajectory as noted. As previously mentioned, I will contact you directly. Thanks.

Posted: **Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:41 am**

HoardCopperByTheTon wrote:I was thinking maybe the sample coin was not properly seated. I would check to make sure it is fully seated and make sure a spring has not fallen off. Try dropping a British 2 pence coin through the comparitor.. it it makes it through without stopping you have found the problem.

HCBTT, I definitely thank you for the suggestion, however, I have tried reversing the copper sample coin with a zinc coin as well as with a Canadian copper and a Canadian zinc etc..

...all to no avail -

From all of the analysis that I have conducted, eliminating the "dampening arm" seems to be the only effective method of repair.

This should describe to you that the comparator / solenoid / rake assembly seem to have no impact on effective copper sorting and rather the dampening arm is interfering with production of operation.

About the only thing I have not tried is greasing the Dampening Arm. I doubt this will change operation, but has anyone experienced the need to do so? If so, where are your grease points?

Posted: **Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:23 am**

zKott wrote:
RichardPenny43 wrote:I couldn't read all that.

Nothing was wrong with your Ryedale.
Set it on a solid surface, not a stack of books.

Thank you RichardPenny,

Evidently the third pic of my Ryedale sitting atop a solid granite counter top created no visual affinity for you as you mentioned that you "couldn't read all that". If you had, you may have distinguished that the pic of the Ryedale sitting atop the books was merely an attempt to elevate the machine to show the underside which was at question for purposes of visual clarity for the readers. You failed to suggest that I lay it flat along my granite piece however, which disappoints me. Perhaps you were too busy to view the pics as well. Furthermore, you must have failed to read the part in which I mentioned that I am beyond the average consumer in technical prowess therefore, I am quite familiar with how to effectively operate a carpenters level to ensure my Ryedale is working on a pile of books or for that matter, a pile of pennies, should they be flat and level. Nevertheless, thanks for the suggestion, but I am still having difficulty with the Dampener Arm.

Dude...Whoa...I's jus say'n.

Furthermore,
viewforum.php?f=49
Welcome to RC. :wave:

Posted: **Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:45 am**

zKott wrote:... I have an AU 1973 running as my sample...

I realize that I'm taking a pretty big risk here questioning the judgement of an above average, prowess-filled, engineering type, but I'll go out on the limb regardless.

There are a number of brass cents that exhibit alloy variations that result in inconsistent comparator behavior. 1973 is in fact one of those suspect years. Don't be offended or get hyper defensive, just try a 1980 cent as your reference when doing a brass accept. I know, you've tried Cu-plated Zn, CAD, etc, etc, but there is no good reason to ask for trouble by using a 1973 as a reference. Pick a more reliable mintage. It really does not matter if the reference coin is AU any more than if it is heads or tails, just keep it flat/flush in the comparator.

There is a such thing as a "near" match with the comparator. As with any well-designed comparator circuit, there is switching hysteresis when the sample coin matches the reference coin. However, it a very simple, analog only implementation (positive feedback in the gain). That design choice by CMI results in the rake's open time being a function (weak function, but still dependent) of how strong of a match there is. A "near" match will manifest the same as if the rake is hanging up as Andy described.

As with any solicited or unsolicited www-acquired advice, take it or leave it. Keep in mind though that if you continually openly criticize the advice that you get (whether good or bad), ppl will stop giving it.

Posted: **Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:17 am**

Mad,

No offense taken in any way. As you mentioned, I have tried multiple different references. This includes 60's, 70's and 80's. No matter which reference coin I use, the only time I experience the stated erratic trajectory is when the dampener arm is involved. When the dampener arm is removed, there is no problem whatsoever. With this, as you and Andy described, "near" matches with the comparator etc., should not an issue. ( I wouldn't think) Could it? I mean, it appears that the dampener arm is solely manually mechanical, actuated only by the weight of each penny being applied on it. (is this assumption correct?) If so, I have come to the conclusion that somehow the dampener arm is "hanging up/slowing down" the coin just slightly enough that it bumps the rake subsequently causing the skewed trajectory. Thoughts?

Posted: **Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:46 pm**

My personal opinion on the usefulness of the dampener is that it is effective at guiding the falling coins into the correct path that causes them to eclipse the reference coin as Andy mentioned. My opinion is that you do not want anything slowing that falling coin. The dampener does slow them a bit.

Given my impression of the dampener's usefulness, I prop mine open with a spring. It is still there to guide the falling coin, but not hinder its speed. Someone else here suggested propping it open with a piece of card stock (or similiar?). I do know that many users have great success with no modifications to their Ryedale whatsoever. From my observations it is possible for a recurring problem of coins "slapping" around as they enter the comparator. The dampener might aggravate that problem or mitigate it, but that momentary pause might be part of your issue (if that is happening).

I've read that the "slap" can be addressed by slightly tipping the whole machine forward just a bit.

Good luck.

Realcent.org

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